RO vs other MMOs

[Raven]

I believe you stopped playing even before episode 10.1 (Einbroch), and that is where some really enjoyable pve content started to be added to the game.

Well, it's mostly end-game pve content, for transcendent classes, right? So my point stands: a lot of grinding without any lore or pve activity till you are 90ish on trans. Like killing boars until you ding 80.

As for one 'best' way for your class I feel just the opposite - the variety is not on the loot part as in WoW, but on build (both stat and skill) and just as Distant I felt I had much more choices for my class in RO (too bad I had to stick to the choice I already made, respecing in WoW does allow me to explore the game more).

In RO, despite customization, there still were 2-3 builds that were playable, really. In wow we have actually 3 main builds for every class with variations of pve or pvp orientation. That is, in my opinion, more options, not less.

And the point I will be making, commenting GVS's post: Stat customization in WoW is not done via point distribution but via itemization. And believe me, the latter is really more user-friendly.

Blizzard also does need to respond to all the QQing they get about certain class imbalance.

No, they do not need to. But they sometimes do. Shame on them for that? I really prefer a company that takes into consideration what their clients have to say.
I believe that none of the mechanics changes were made based only on QQing. There was a solid research behind it. There was PTR tuning. Hard and professional work.
You don't expect me to believe that listening to your clients is a bad thing, or that the number of QQ on forum is a sign of badly designed game?

While I am in love with PvP the title of 'best' MMO goes to the one I enjoy playing the most, regardless of the fact if it is PvP or PvE oriented.

But you haven't played any of the pvp oriented MMO. You moved from RO to L2 for a short while and then to WoW. You did not check out AoC or even Warhammer (which I consider a very good pvp mmo, with pvp i actually enjoy). So, wierd, that with your love for mindless killing of other human beings you still cling to a game designed to be about killing AI and scripts.

But in that regard I more or less share thoughts with Distant.

That is a discussion for other topic, and I don't think we can do it without starting a flame war. So I won't comment on that.

It is just that 'true content' of RO appealed to me much more.

Define "true content".

[...] who thinks that Eye of the Beholder was a better game than Neverwinter Nights 2 [...]

Bad example, NWN2 was boring and a HUGE step back compared even to Baldur's Gate 2. I just looked nicer, that's all.

Edit:

One comment before I start to respond to GVS's post. Are you really interested in my opinions and explanations of how and why WoW works the way it works, and why its different that RO in those aspects? Or you just wanted to tell us what do YOU think about it and you don't give a shit about what others think about it, like Distant just did:

Naah, ja wyraziłem tylko swoje zdanie na poparcie twoich tez Crow. Nie interesuje mnie co myśli o tym Raven :X

Czyli nie włączam się do dyskusji dalej.

Which translates to:
"No, I just stated my opinions to support Crow's opinions. I'm not interested what does Raven thinks about it.

I'm not going to join the discussion later on"

[Crow]

I really enjoyed reading your review GvS. While I agree with it for most part, there are few remarks I can’t go on without posting.

Not being able to switch gears during fight makes it even more boring. I don't know any reasons behind it, so maybe someone more knowledgeable could explain it to me.

Not being able to switch your plate armor in the middle of the fight does make a lot of reason for me…

But what I hate most and consider worst „feature” ever in MMO is EVADE. Idea is simple: limit players freedom, so they won't abuse anything and do as we said, but implementation is totally retarded.

Not to mention, that mobs simply choose to stop attacking you after some distance. We tried to form a fun 3 people party for Isle of Q’D dailies (with mobbing and AoE killing) and it was simply impossible. Run few steps in one direction and first mobs you pulled already ‘evade’. This puts even further emphasis on solo playing.

WoW is boring and it's PvP sucks, RO sucks too, but less and it has WoE.

Well still I consider both of them to not be ‘fail MMOs’. People who started playing it played it for a remarkable amount of time and it managed to keep them interested in game, and come back from time to time, even after they got bored. What I would consider a ‘fail’ MMO is something like AoC – a ‘whoa great new game, with cool graphics, new mechanics, and you can rape’ that people play for three weeks, but than come back to WoW, because it sucked. As far as I can see War is also heading toward the ‘fail MMO’ direction.

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Well, it's mostly end-game pve content, for transcendent classes, right? So my point stands: a lot of grinding without any lore or pve activity till you are 90ish on trans. Like killing boars until you ding 80.

Mostly agreed. Maority of quests in WoW didn’t differ that much though, especially in vanilla content. (Actually I am not that much of an opponent of grinding, especially one with visible progress. It is relaxing, just as playing Mine Sweeper.)

In RO, despite customization, there still were 2-3 builds that were playable, really. In wow we have actually 3 main builds for every class with variations of pve or pvp orientation. That is, in my opinion, more options, not less.

And the point I will be making, commenting GVS's post: Stat customization in WoW is not done via point distribution but via itemization. And believe me, the latter is really more user-friendly.

As far as stat builds are concerned +/-10 points in each stat made a lot of difference. And most classes need to care for at least 4 of them. I agree that there aren’t that many choices when it comes to skills.

I would also like to add, that at least for DPS classes, in WoW you really have only one stat (Pseudo Power) that you simply maximize on your gear. Dunno about tanks, and I agree that as a healer I do need to make some interesting choices. Too bad that for each slot I have two, maybe three items that are viable, and that getting them is semi-random.

No, they do not need to. But they sometimes do. Shame on them for that? I really prefer a company that takes into consideration what their clients have to say.

They need in a commercial meaning of that word. I totally agree however, that Blizzard does a great job constantly developing and tweaking the game. However my original sentence was referring to 1v1 balance, which I claimed to exist to a certain degree due to the fact they listen to their customers. What you said basically confirms what I said.

As a side note – of course every company should respond to what their customers demand. The problem however is that majority of customers here are 15yo kids whose needs are totally different than mine, and sometimes it feels like the game is providing for idiots.

You did not check out AoC or even Warhammer

I am not a sort of person who levels a character to a decent level in a week or two. I can’t really be arsed to waste my time leveling a char in a game, which everyone quits after one month. As I said in reply to GvS post – AoC already proved to be fail MMO. Maybe I will try War, if it does not die in few more months. A quick google search however hinted me, that last patch for War was released in September 2008.

Define "true content".

True content is the reason why I play a given game. The part of it that feels rewarding and I get the feeling, that before I play this part of game I am just preparing for it. In case of MMOs that is usually the endgame content.

[GvS]

Stat customization in WoW is not done via point distribution but via itemization. And believe me, the latter is really more user-friendly.

I know it is, itemization is very important in RO too. But stat customization done via items AND stats provide more possibilites than customization done only by items.
In WoW there are some key stats that you must get to certain, exact value, like spell hit and defense. RO is more flexible in that matter.
Also, in RO you can customize not only stats, but also your skills via gear.

Are you really interested in my opinions and explanations of how and why WoW works the way it works, and why its different that RO in those aspects? Or you just wanted to tell us what do YOU think about it and you don't give a shit about what others think about it

Maybe my English is not pro enough yet, sorry fot that. I asked because I know I'm not omniscient and I would love to recieve answers. This is forum, so I expect some interesting discussion. If I woudn't give shit about what others think about it, I would post it on some blog and disable comments.

About WAR:
It's visible they focused on PvP and it was nice to play even just after launch. Leveling from PvP is awesome. Hybrid healer/dps classes, joining BG from anywhere and very limited CC are great too. What I don't like is that they repeat the same mistake as WoW: PUG BGs. Team PvP battles isn't something you can do with totally random people ffs! Also, there is some kind of WoE but it's on all time. Getting MY keep taken at 4 am isn't something I like. Even from first keep fights it seemed that there is actually more fighting on forums than in game, like "You took keep when we were at work! NOOB U SUCK LOL!".
But Mystic suprised me by their responivnes to community and actually fixing things that people wanted, while adding new features and improvements at the same time. It could be great PvP MMO, even better than RO, but it needs some more time to figure things out.

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Edit: answering Crow

Not being able to switch your plate armor in the middle of the fight does make a lot of reason for me…

That's true, but there are many things that don't make sense in MMO, so I guess it's better to focus on fun factor than realism. Sometimes more realism equals more fun, like horsers being able to hit other players in AoC, some times it not fun, like no gear switching.

Well still I consider both of them to not be ‘fail MMOs’. People who started playing it played it for a remarkable amount of time and it managed to keep them interested in game, and come back from time to time, even after they got bored. What I would consider a ‘fail’ MMO is something like AoC – a ‘whoa great new game, with cool graphics, new mechanics, and you can rape’ that people play for three weeks, but than come back to WoW, because it sucked. As far as I can see War is also heading toward the ‘fail MMO’ direction.

Of course both WoW and RO are not fail MMO and I had a lot of fun for long time in both. But what really keeps me playing is endgame. I'm not suprised how many people actually play some shitty MMOs or even good ones where at some point you just do same thing all over again - kill AI. They just do it because they friends do it and they can have fun together even in worst game doing nothing. I've seen many RO players going to WoW not because they think it's better game, but only because it's more popular. Unfortunately, I'm not really social person and I need some challenge from game - fight with real, thinking humans on equal terms.

I agree about AoC. I haven't played it, but 95% of comments I've read about it were negative. This can't be coincidence.
I think WAR is doing fine. I haven't been lurking on forums lately, but game launched in September and first major patch, with two new classes was released in December (http://www.thewarwiki.com/wiki/Patches).

[Crow]

Stat customization in WoW is not done via point distribution but via itemization. And believe me, the latter is really more user-friendly.

I know it is, itemization is very important in RO too. But stat customization done via items AND stats provide more possibilites than customization done only by items.

I can't really agree, that there was much stat customization via itemization in Ro. You had some freedom on accessories, but other slots mostly had a good item for them, a better item and the best item (all of which could be upgraded, but again the only choice there was 'am I willing to risk loosing it again to get +7 instead of +6). Almost all the itemization differences came from cards, but I consider that rather 'skill' itemization rather than 'stat'. Plus if you didn't have MVP cards, you were pretty much limited to 'the one and only right choice for a card'. Again - except for accessories.

Even from first keep fights it seemed that there is actually more fighting on forums than in game, like "You took keep when we were at work! NOOB U SUCK LOL!".

Exactly as in RO! 4h / week of WoE, 5 days of flaming on forums. GOD I MISS THAT.

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One more remark about questing in RO. As I have mentioned, I have noticed quests appearing around episode 10.1 and the first ones I actually did were in LHZ expansion. I also agree that they were limited to 90+ or at least 80+ players. However, the quests in RO felt really epic.

There was no ‘I am preparing new version of Blight, bring me 25 toad eyes and 5 basilisk legs, which have 5% drop rate’. There more like some quest chains in WoW (which I admit were really good). They required a reasonable number of traveling, included big number of dialogues, and obviously mob killing, but that was rather ‘go through dungeon’ or ‘kill the miniboss’ than ‘kill 90 porings’. Doing Kiel quest took me two days (doing it with guild) and I was not bored at all. The Thanatos Tower quest was also great, even if I didn’t manage to complete it (needed to go through really hard dungeon levels). Heck, even class quests, while being very annoying (you just couldn’t wait to get your shiny 2nd job, and you still needed to complete a 45min quest), were well made, for someone who likes questing.

Obviously I can also never forget the biggest quest of them all – the sign quest and god item quest. The quest itself took days to complete (not because of grinding, but because it was long). It was also more of a guild quest than solo quest, as completing it required clearing dungeons and holding castles in WoE. It was ok though, since due to lack of ‘soulbound’ mechanism the reward could be shared among guildies. This was both a PvP and PvE quest, which basically required you to explore majority of RO content.

[Raven]

One fast comment about WAR:

Crow, you are so totally wrong, that I can't even find a word to describe it. Last time I checked WAR planned a great event with a patch on WotLK release week. That was NOT September, afaik.

I would advise you to stop repeating some stupid jurnalist's memes without checking it, kk?

I will comment on other things later, when I have time, because in many places you have a serious misconception about WoW.

But some points made here are valid nonetheless.

[1WingedAngel]

PvP is epic in RO because it's once or twice a week. If WoW did that, it would also be epic (I think they should have an epic1/2x per week battle in addition on BGs). I love WAR's PvP in that you can go anytime, anywhere, and if you're low lvl you'll be buffed up, so you don't get people whining that you suck cause you're 61 or something, but I have a feeling that when people are max lvl, the low lvl bgs will be empty, also the castles need to be more epic. They need to combine the good aspects of all 3.

PvE, I prefer WoW over all others. Granted, they made it too easy now to gear up, but they made lvling so much better then any other game.. just mindlessly questing, I'll keep lvling w/o even noticing, unlike RO where I literally quit the game because I fall asleep while trying to lvl cause it's so boring. I liked some raiding. Right now, I have a char on US servers in a guild of only friends, so we have a lot of fun with it, hanging out on vent, helping lowbies, questing/instancing together.

Also, I don't mind the evading, or leashed monsters, I rarely find evade bugs, which are fixed after server restart usually, and I think leashed monsters are way better then the teleing/healing monsters of RO.. that was one thing I couldn't stand, spending 4 hours on a fight because the monster was almost dead and keeps teleing/healing.

And things like switching armors in WoW.. they used to do that, bit too many people complained (for example, warlocks, where a mage would pop on their shadow resist gear and have 90% immunity to fear, etc.) I think they should bring it back, but I understand the reasoning.. they should vote or something. Also, WAR does update alot, and you can tell that they listen to the community because it's often the biggest problems people are experiencing. They said they were going to do an uber patch to fix so much, but I don't know if they've done it yet.

I thought about it, and at first WoW seems like it is more rigid in character design then RO, but.. in both games I see standard builds that everyone uses, (like I've only really seen 2, maybe 3 different wizard builds that everyone uses, also 2-3 different fire mage builds everyone uses) but there's many trees to mix/match depending on playstyle, like even for a mage you can be heavily defensive, or suicidally offensive (i.e. me, lol). Even gear.. endgame on RO, everyone ends up with the exact same gear and cards (if they can get it).

Plus random glitching is prevalent on both (getting the exact right atkspd allows for double EDP Sonic Blow, or mages soloing an entire wing of Naxx because of SSing an OPed Bone shield). Botting is far too prevalent on both as well, but I see WoW people doing more to stop it (even successfully suing a bot selling company). Which brings me to my final point, I like WoW GMs a lot more then RO ones, I've talked to a few and they've always been nice, and helped as fast as they could.

[Mizusu]

I never played RO so i cant really comment about that. Instead i will comment on the pvp content in WoW and some about AoC and WAR

I agree BGs and world pvp is not that great now in WoW, but have it always been like that? No. Alterec Valley was heavily dependant on tactics and team effort (unimaginable huh?) in Vanilla WoW as its now called there was alot of things you did which most players now have no clue what do. Like the ram pelts, Before you needed to turn in lots of em to give your outriders mounts. Turn in metal scraps to upgrade their gear. Sneak operations to get back your lieutenants/ get down their officers or whatever their called to get the buff. and last but not least, summon the ancients. Back then AV could last forever, sometimes the battles felt epic, other times it was just mindless killing as none wanted capture areas. At this time there were no cross realm BGs and you could sign whole teams up for battlegrounds, even in AV. And from my standpoint of view it did feel rewarding when went in there with your pvp team and felt that your prescene there actually turned the tide of the battle.

As for world PvP, yes it is dead. At a early time there was infact huge fights in WoW, mainly focusing with Southshore vs Tarren Mill.

In AoC i never even got to any real pve or pvp content so i cant really say much about it, other than it was incredibly clunky and not really user friendly, As for quests and stuff, they were ok, some of them. When i came to the next area i pretty much stopped (at level 20) as i felt like i was playing a solo game , and a boring one that is. Because of the horrible chat system i dont think most low levels even knew how to write in normal /say chat, atleast none ever responded in any form to neither /say or area chat....

WAR i felt was ok, great ideas like open quests, but did it work? not really for me. Killing 50 mobs alone to get to phase 2 then someone comes in on boss kills and roll 999 while you roll 1 and get 1silver or so for your effort dont feel good. The pvp areas was a mere joke from Order early game stand point, impossible to even try as everwhere u went you were always outnumbered by 5-6 of those mutants, always. In BGs you could not really do anything about afkers as far as i know, and tank classes just walked over all other classes. As for professions it was just LOL, nothing to mention there.

[Crow]

At this time there were no cross realm BGs and you could sign whole teams up for battlegrounds, even in AV. And from my standpoint of view it did feel rewarding when went in there with your pvp team and felt that your prescene there actually turned the tide of the battle.

Your presence can turn the tide of battle in all BGs. If only not for the number of tards in your team, who you get the feeling make their best effort to turn it yet again in the opposite direction. Still I think if they only fixed signing up as premades BGs would be a lot of fun. They would also be rewarding (as you would get honor WAY faster than in PUGs).

As for world PvP, yes it is dead. At a early time there was infact huge fights in WoW, mainly focusing with Southshore vs Tarren Mill.

While probably it is not as alive as you claim it was (started playing in late TBC, so dunno), but I did enjoy quite some world PvP actions while leveling. Actually that was one of the features that kept me from dying of boredom while leveling to 60. My best memories from leveling come from STV, where quests were rather simple (kill 15 panthers, etc), but you needed to keep your eye on Allies all the time. Kill few mobs, kill an Ally, kill few mobs, run from big Alliance party, kill few mobs, kill the Alliance party members when they lost their focus, kill few mobs, die to level 70 ally. Respawn, be corpse camped, respawn, be corpse camped (well that part probably wasn't that fun). Ask level 70 friends to come, kill the noob ally 70 camping you, enjoy. Much better than just endless running through half empty areas.

World PvP also is 'present' even if it doesn't actually take place. For instance a grey ally knows, that stealing that ore node from me is a BAD idea.

Some moments of world PvP were truly epic (killing a 5 levels stronger warlock), but still probably it is not what it used to be:<.

[1WingedAngel]

Oh, I know that I've turned the tides of BGs before, even down to stalemates in WSG, where I get bored and just run the flag a few times. The number of complete morons often makes a simple BG (like the one I was in earlier today) from a fun PvP experience, to a painful ordeal with lots of swearing. I think I'm going to stop playing WSG (which I love) because DKs are so OPed in it. I've literally never seen the side with the least amount of DKs, end up winning. I've never experienced a full premade BG, but if it were a guild/friends thing, I imagne that it would be amazingly fun. There were some epic moments (killing a skull lvl Shaman because he thinks I can't then I CS his heals and burst him down because he got cocky, 4 lvl higher Warrior charging me while mobbing, and I kill all my mobs and him, or killing 15 lvl higher enemies by Blast Waving them off cliffs) and they still happen sometimes, so that helps a lot.

World PvP should be better.. it's so fun. I still run around in low areas (like TM) asking if anyone is getting ganked, so I can gank back, then they get high lvl friends and kill me, then I get high lvl friends and kill them, it's great times. Hell, I spent the last hour in Barrens battling with 2 highlvl NE Druids, us all fighting over fishing spots, and it was really fun. If you've ever played on a brand new server, it's epic. Constant random attacks on small towns by 50's and 60's, then high lvl towns when people get maxed lvl. At least in my experience, it was awesome. Just sucks that it ends after a few months. I always ask low lvl guildies if they're getting ganked, or follow them around in dangerous areas just wating for someone to try and gank them.

I do love parts on WAR, but so much of it needs work to just flow nicely as in WoW, but WoW has been out over 4 years, so I'll give it a little time, then try back in a bit and see how it is. It does seem that it actually takes more skill to play effectively, and one person can turn the tide of a battle if they do it just right. I do miss my Witch Hunter.

Edit:
I just remembered.. I just really hate how 90% of RO's WOEing is precasting, while the other team just tries to charge in past it, or get an ME down, then charge. I just.. need a game of skill. I heard they changed WOE a lot, and I don't know if it's the same as it used to be, but that's why I always tried to solo castles against lower lvl guilds, or when I played on servers with only about 20 people on them, with 1 castle, it was more fun then the standard "precast for 2 hours", or "charge in spamming pots till you die, or even if you don't die right away, everyone else died so you're facing 50 people on your own". If I can be replaced by a script that does literally just one thing.. there's a problem.

[Distant]

My best memories from leveling come from STV, where quests were rather simple (kill 15 panthers, etc), but you needed to keep your eye on Allies all the time.

It really depends what class you are exping. It's a nightmare mode for a defenseless mage. After leveling my mage there i was very reluctant to go there with a druid., but... it was awesome. My ganking has brought many 70 lvl allies there. It was fun, i was like master of life and death for those poor allies and even 70 levels weren't that dangerous. Plenty of trees, rocks and other LoS objects saved me from being 1shoted many many times ;x