RO vs other MMOs

[Raven]

I had high hopes for RO2, as I still believe RO is best MMO I have ever played. Too bad that the second part is so ghey...

That is very interesting, cause in my private opinion, RO was the WORST MMO I have ever played. I hope it will die in horrible pains on the scrapyard of computer history.

If it was in fact the best MMO you have ever played, why did you stopped playing it and moved to WoW? That would be illogical, right?

[1WingedAngel]

If it was in fact the best MMO you have ever played, why did you stopped playing it and moved to WoW? That would be illogical, right?

Not really.. I play MMOs to play with my friends, I've played many terribl games simply because my friends were. RO is a good game (albeit terribly coded, and all grinding) if you have many friends in it, but too many of them have moved on, and I don't have the will to regrind all of my fully carded +7/8/9 equips again. Plus all of those new equips and things I'd need to read about and do the math to find the best. They just made RO too complicated. =( I even thought about going to that one server that has RO up until the patch before trans classes (partly cause wizzies pwned uberly back then, hehe).

Besides, FF: XI is the worst MMORPG ever. =P RO2 people claim that they're trying to get rid of the grindyness, but I've heard that their quests only last till about lvl 17, then it's back to grinding. So we'll see. =\

[Raven]

in my private opinion, RO was the WORST MMO I have ever played.

Well, never played FF IX so i can't say its the worst MMO I ever played, right.

About RO: It's horrible, horrible game. I don't deny, it was great playing with all my friends, but that does not change the fact that the game is terrible. It just says that I like you THAT much.

Why I RO the worst in my opinion? Grinding, no quests, no lore, no trading skills, items upgraded based on luck, shitty card drops, only pvp content. You name it. All of those things are terrible on their own, and in RO it was the essence of the game.

Wow tried to fix some of those things. They failed in many, I admit, but WoW is at least playable, even if your friends are not online.

And I wont mind if you won't understand me, I'm just a PVE freak.

[Crow]

Obviously judging MMO is based on what does a person seek in it. Grinding and questing are for me just means to get to the endgame content, so while I obviously preferred leveling in WoW than in RO only what awaited at max level affects my feelings about a game.

PvE content near the time I stopped playing RO (when Celestia wiped) was decent, at least much better than grinding Niff 24/7. Parties to Biolabs or Valk shield hunts were really enjoyable. Thanatos tower was better than some raid instances in WoW. We also did get 'some' quests at that time, some of which were really interesting. Doing Kiel quest with entire guild was simply great. I really wonder, if PvE content got even better since that time.

What is really important for me however is PvP content. I do admit that WoW triumphs RO in two things here - world PvP and arenas. I know on some servers world PvP was enabled in Ro, but it was not by default, and the class balance for 1v1 in RO was poor anyway. Arenas in WoW take a lot of skill and coordination to play (although they are pita to organize) and weren't really matched by anything in Ro. However when we think about anything involving more than 5 players, this is why I claim Ro to be my favorite MMO ever. WoE required preparation, coordination, cooperation, leadership skills and was very, very, very rewarding (remember the time when we first hit 100 invest after few months of defense? Or when we almost managed to get Destiny castle which was near to 100 ?). Group PvP in WoW is a joke compared to RO. You can't even do Battlegrounds with friends, as you get 45min queues when you try to.

WoW, L2 (and other MMOs I have seen/read about) have 'American' mentality, while Ro has Oriental mentality. Ro was all about cooperation and working as team. In Wow, even when it comes to combining your efforts with other players in 25 man raids it still feels like I am playing solo game with some other people chatting with me on Vent:<.

On top of that I much prefer Isometric view over Tomb Raider TPP view in modern MMOs.

So while for you it was worst MMO ever (and thanks for playing with us only because you like us), I am yet to see anything that beats RO in Massive Multiplayer gameplay.

[Distant]

Perhaps even something more.
When you reach beyond WoW gameplay and see the mechanics you get this feel that your path was already planned. Your equipment, your quests, your raids. Everything is predictable. End game in WoW has a "second work" feeling. Do your dailies, make 3 mining routes, obligatory raid at 18:00.

Ragnarok Online surely wasn't designed well, but it's game mechanics was wide open. You could make something that was almost useless (hunter using melee weapon) or was bending game rules (instant cast wizards). Some people were grinding money or cards, but not all of them. Other where MVP hunting or doing some pvp or ganking if this was pvp server. You had a "choice" of doing nothing between WoEs, balancing on thin line of bankruptcy. Sure you get bored faster, but the grind time in ro was much bigger then in wow. As i remember getting from 98 to 99 level on my cookie cutter spec with elemental-orc ladied pike took me 16 hours of gameplay, while it was less then a week of playing to reach 80 lvl :X.

And yes, from my point of view pvp is much better then in wow. There is no real balance in RO and almost none complained about it. Only two moments in RO history i have seen some complaints on forums (hunters in ancient times, sinx). The reason behind this is probably that you saw less then 10 ppl fighting in RO only in world pvp or in duels that didnt give ppl anything except epen rating. On the other hand WoW... official forums are full of nerf whines and arena is serious buisness. Usual RO battle was an epic BATTLE, not 15 vs 15 ppl in Arathi Basin or Alterac Valley PVE marathon. Battle that included not only the fight but the tactics and diplomacy on higher level. (Who will we ally to overthrow Destiny? Which castle to attack now? Where are main Destiny forces?) Raids are some exercise in coordination, but they are not comparable to complexity of WoE. Raids are more like: read tactics, listen to raid leader on vent, play your role, do it well and that's all. I rly miss WoEs :X.

[Crow]

How could I have forgotten to add to my list, that WoE on top of cooperation on tactical level involved also strategical planning, diplomacy and intelligence ( Remember when screenshots of Destiny players builds were a valuable gains? Or remember Lagger asura cast time xd?). Forming good alliance was tough as hell, because it usually meant that one of the guilds needed to sacrifice their own gains (couldn't invest in castle, sometimes couldn't even get a castle) in order to defend allied, highly invested castle...

One thing I can't agree with, though, is that wow feels much more 'second work'. Sure, in wow you need to play more in between raids, but you get to choose your own raiding times and if you can't/don't want to come to a given raid its not a big deal. Worst case the guild will cancel the run and it won't be biggy. In RO - miss one critical person (CP gypsy) for only one WoE, and you loose the castle you have been investing in for last month... WoE took place only once a week (compared to 4 nights raiding in wow at average), but coming to it felt much more obligatory.

[Raven]

PvE content near the time I stopped playing RO (when Celestia wiped) was decent

You must be joking, right? There was nothing decent about RO's pve content. There was almost none pve content to begin with. No lore, no quests, no bosses with interesting mechanics that you need strats to get by. Just grinding from noob to endgame and then more grinding for items and cards. Dont forget, that there was only one BEST item for every build/class. In WoW, for example, you get a set of items you can get in endgame, which are more or less equal.

[...]the class balance for 1v1 in RO was poor anyway.

There is NO 1vs1 balance in WoW either. Neither 2vs2 balance. The only pvp balance Blizzard is aiming to achieve is 5vs5.

WoE required preparation, coordination, cooperation, leadership skills and was very, very, very rewarding

As is raiding in WoW

Group PvP in WoW is a joke compared to RO. You can't even do Battlegrounds with friends, as you get 45min queues when you try to.

WoW is obviously a PvE game, and no-one claims otherwise. Their main emphasis will always be PvE. But before we will grant RO a title of "best pvp MMO of the century" let me ask you a question: How many other PvP oriented MMO have you tried?

WoW, L2 (and other MMOs I have seen/read about) have 'American' mentality, while Ro has Oriental mentality. Ro was all about cooperation and working as team. In Wow, even when it comes to combining your efforts with other players in 25 man raids it still feels like I am playing solo game with some other people chatting with me on Vent:<.

In my opinion, you don't have to win against other people to achieve something as a group. You can win without anyone else loosing too. And feel good about it.

I am yet to see anything that beats RO in Massive Multiplayer gameplay.

True in a logical sense, but lets not forget that you haven't seen a lot of other MMOs, right?

[Raven]

Perhaps even something more.
When you reach beyond WoW gameplay and see the mechanics you get this feel that your path was already planned. Your equipment, your quests, your raids. Everything is predictable. End game in WoW has a "second work" feeling. Do your dailies, make 3 mining routes, obligatory raid at 18:00.

If you look at this like that, then I must say, life is much or less shitty. You get up in the morning, you go to work, you come home, you watch tv/play pc, you go to sleep, you get up to work. On weekends you go visit your family, and then, after enough levels, you die. Game Over.

If you play wow like it's your "second work" it feels like second work. But then again, if you want to achieve something, you need hard work. Life and WoW are alike, aren't they?

You can always play an alt, do achievements, go to some duns for lulz or not play the game at all.

Some people were grinding money or cards, but not all of them.

Hmm, sounds like dailies, mining route and mats grinding to me.

Other where MVP hunting

Hmm, does it sound like doing heroics?

or doing some pvp or ganking if this was pvp server.

Could it be world pvp, battlegrounds or arena?

You had a "choice" of doing nothing between WoEs, balancing on thin line of bankruptcy.

As you have in wow between raids.

It seems to me, that WoW is as much predestined game, as RO.

Sure you get bored faster, but the grind time in ro was much bigger then in wow. As i remember getting from 98 to 99 level on my cookie cutter spec with elemental-orc ladied pike took me 16 hours of gameplay, while it was less then a week of playing to reach 80 lvl :X.

If doing end-game content is your aim, then how a longer grind is better than short questing? That part I really don't understand. You could, of course, simulate RO in WoW. Just make a lvl 1 character and go kill boars until you ding 80.

And yes, from my point of view pvp is much better then in wow. There is no real balance in RO and almost none complained about it. Only two moments in RO history i have seen some complaints on forums (hunters in ancient times, sinx). The reason behind this is probably that you saw less then 10 ppl fighting in RO only in world pvp or in duels that didnt give ppl anything except epen rating. On the other hand WoW... official forums are full of nerf whines and arena is serious buisness. Usual RO battle was an epic BATTLE, not 15 vs 15 ppl in Arathi Basin or Alterac Valley PVE marathon.

So RO is better at pvp because they didn't aimed at any pvp balance and never got any, but less people played it and whined.

Battle that included not only the fight but the tactics and diplomacy on higher level. (Who will we ally to overthrow Destiny? Which castle to attack now? Where are main Destiny forces?) Raids are some exercise in coordination, but they are not comparable to complexity of WoE. Raids are more like: read tactics, listen to raid leader on vent, play your role, do it well and that's all. I rly miss WoEs :X.

Oh yeah, I surely was great for guild leaders. All that politics. Truth is, we, your underlings, didn't get ANY fun from Gaining Alliances, Gathering Intelligence, Sacrificing Assets and other high-rank-general-my-ass stuff.

Blame WoW for trying to deliver fun to ALL the players, and clearly stating, that a Raid Leader or Guild Leader are positions of RESPONSIBILITY, not privilige.

Please excuse my lack of new information or arguments, but I consider a win situation when I can point, in ongoing discussion, that other's arguments are illogical and inconsistent. That saves time and is more fun.

[Crow]

You must be joking, right? There was nothing decent about RO's pve content. There was almost none pve content to begin with. No lore, no quests, no bosses with interesting mechanics that you need strats to get by. Just grinding from noob to endgame and then more grinding for items and cards. Dont forget, that there was only one BEST item for every build/class. In WoW, for example, you get a set of items you can get in endgame, which are more or less equal.

There was some marginal lore, connecting RO universe to Nordic mythology, but it was marginal enough for me to agree with you on that point. I believe you stopped playing even before episode 10.1 (Einbroch), and that is where some really enjoyable pve content started to be added to the game. As for one 'best' way for your class I feel just the opposite - the variety is not on the loot part as in WoW, but on build (both stat and skill) and just as Distant I felt I had much more choices for my class in RO (too bad I had to stick to the choice I already made, respecing in WoW does allow me to explore the game more).

There is NO 1vs1 balance in WoW either. Neither 2vs2 balance. The only pvp balance Blizzard is aiming to achieve is 5vs5.

That is what they claim, but there is much more balance in 1v1 (caused by 5v5 balance at the very least) than there was in RO. Blizzard also does need to respond to all the QQing they get about certain class imbalance.

WoW is obviously a PvE game, and no-one claims otherwise. Their main emphasis will always be PvE. But before we will grant RO a title of "best pvp MMO of the century" let me ask you a question: How many other PvP oriented MMO have you tried?

While I am in love with PvP the title of 'best' MMO goes to the one I enjoy playing the most, regardless of the fact if it is PvP or PvE oriented.

In my opinion, you don't have to win against other people to achieve something as a group. You can win without anyone else loosing too. And feel good about it.

That is correct. But in that regard I more or less share thoughts with Distant.

True in a logical sense, but lets not forget that you haven't seen a lot of other MMOs, right?

That is why I am always claiming, that Ro is the best MMO I have ever played, not that it is the best MMO ever released (even if that was not clear from content of my first post here, I bet most readers realized my intentions).

Now, I admit that RO had a lot of flaws, out of which some are resolved much better in WoW. It is just that 'true content' of RO appealed to me much more. But hey, maybe I am just an old timer who thinks that Eye of the Beholder was a better game than Neverwinter Nights 2 or that Q1 was much more enjoyable than Enemy Territory...


Edit:

Sure you get bored faster, but the grind time in ro was much bigger then in wow. As i remember getting from 98 to 99 level on my cookie cutter spec with elemental-orc ladied pike took me 16 hours of gameplay, while it was less then a week of playing to reach 80 lvl :X.

If doing end-game content is your aim, then how a longer grind is better than short questing? That part I really don't understand. You could, of course, simulate RO in WoW. Just make a lvl 1 character and go kill boars until you ding 80.

Haha, there is a hidden catch here. Is 16 hours of gameplay more or less than one week xd ?

[GvS]

I wanted to write about this for some time already. I've been comparing them since I started playing, but now I finally feel that I've experienced enough of WoW to do it properly. Let's start with some basic data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok_Online
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft

As you can see, RO is three years older than WoW and that is big difference in computer games world. I've beeen playing RO for over two years, unfortunately only on private servers, but they were as close to official ones as possible (higher exp rates, eAthena bugs). I'm playing WoW for over a year now, on Outland EU PvP server.

Graphics:

RO uses mixed mode with 3D world and 2D sprites. There is a lot of AoE spell usage in RO and huge battles can make your screen white and shaking all time. Fortunately, there is special command to disable/enable all effects with one key. It makes possible to participate in fights with over one hundred players even with average computer. Characters look always the same, only thing you can change are headgears, hairstyles, colors and weapon + shield during fight. Old areas are very simple, yet pleasant and clean. There are many different themes in RO, from very colorful and childish, like Toy Factory, through casual ones, like Prontera and Aldebaran to quite dark ones, like Thanatos Tower. I don't like positional lags (but maybe it was just „feature” of emulators) and short range of visible objects, on large zoom.

WoW is full 3D and uses variety of cool effects for abilities and spells. Each piece of equipment change your character look. That looks nice, but going into city full of players requires very good comp or you'll just see one frame per few seconds. World is huge. Trees look really ugly and if you played any other 3D MMO from that time, like Lineage 2, you will be really disappointed with WoW 3D engine. New expansions however are much better, Outland sci-fi design and areas were beautiful and for someone who prefers fantasy, new expansion - Wrath of the Lich King features some really nice graphics.

I don't really care about looks, so less resource eating one is better for me.

Game mechanics overall:

RO uses stat points. Thats one of the most important factors of fun character development, adding stats. Most of new games don't have it unfortunately. WoW just add them automatically, I guess it has to be idiot-friendly to sell so many copies.

What is more, you can keep your stats and gear hidden, so your opponents will have to figure out themselves why they suck and you own. Immediate gear switching is also one of the huge features and require a lot of skills. In WoW you can view everyones stats, skills and gears. It certainly shortens learning curve, but there is no need for intelligence there. In RO knowing who is who, GR and GTB users, helps a lot. Not being able to switch gears during fight makes it even more boring. I don't know any reasons behind it, so maybe someone more knowledgeable could explain it to me.
Resetting skill build and switching between tank, healer and dps is really great. Unfortunately, my class didn't have much choices. And WoW overall doesn't have much choice, just skills and two (at least for my class) gear sets.
Some kind of reset is available in RO now too, but it's paid service.
RO is currently doing some major mechanics changes, but they are still on korean test server.

PvE:

RO is korean game, so it requires lots of grinding. It might sound boring, but I like freedom you have in RO. I can level wherever I want with whatever party I like. I can kill monsters one by one or mob whole map. Mob designs are really different from each other (maybe except porings, plants and hydra/peno), use variety of skills, eggs evolve in mature mobs, etc. Most important however, is their elemental property. It makes you switch equipments and skills used very often. In WoW I used same macro until I met fire elemental. They were immune to fire. Many, many levels later I met some mobs immune to shadow. And that's basically it. Of course they use skills too, but only basic ones. Many mobs are exact copies of their previous version, jsut with different color and name.

WoW quest leveling forces you to explore almost whole world, which is good. But let's stop pretending. It's still same old grind, you just have to walk more. Bigger parties for normal PvE content are almost non existent. You just kill them too fast, or miss if they are higher level (with exception of some godlike class that can mob solo). Instances and raids are kind of fun, but limits of 5/10/25 people is retarded. Again, RO offers much more freedom in creating party. I remember I complained a lot in RO that you always need priest for party. Later, RO introduced scrolls with almost every skill you need and mercenaries, that allowed you to solo even if you don't have any priest (not to mention pots in RO and WoW). MvPs however, were changed and earthquake skill forced you to create parties. Size and content isn't determined, you can do whatever you like. In WoW you are often forced to go with tank, healer and 3x CC dps. Not much freedom. (btw – RO implemented instances recently). But what I hate most and consider worst „feature” ever in MMO is EVADE. Idea is simple: limit players freedom, so they won't abuse anything and do as we said, but implementation is totally retarded. I encountered bugged monsters that evaded constantly standing in one place, or what is worse, ran back to their position, magically healed to full hp while being immortal and then attacked me again. It's like freaking DRM, hurts mostly legal users.
In RO mobs just tele and use damn skill to heal themselves, so it is still possible to finish them if you're lucky to find them again before they fully heal. Of course I know tele is not possible in WoW, but that's not the point.

Hunting gear is worst nightmare in RO. Getting all cards take a lot of time if you're unlucky and is completely boring. At least there is workaround, you can just buy them if you find other or you are skilled enough to lvl in end game dungeons and earn money form that. Bind on pickup made WoW very sad, selfish game. I loved how we shared important gears in our RO guild. That really needed trust and friendship. There is guild bank in WoW, but it just isn't the same as throwing devis and GRs around.

PvP:

Both games have their advantages, but overall RO wins again. WoW is technically superior. Arena system is great. Various ladders, points, titles, statistics. Battlegrounds have some potential, more people, different scenarios and possibly some team play. Unfortunately, game play is totally fucked up. You join up with random people, some afk farmers (yes, staying afk whole BG gave rewards for long time and now to avoid anti-afk system they just use simple bots), some foreigners who don't even speak English on international server and most often - just usual Internet retards. I've tried to make full premade BG team twice and it was horror. Both of them had 30 min wait time, and second time we joined already started BG which was basically lost. Overall WoW PvP is seriously unbalanced and boring. I can understand it's not possible to balance 1v1 and very hard with 2v2, but Blizzard claims that they focus on 5v5 balance. Unfortunately, I don't believe them. (http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/07/19/th ... s-1-arena/). Global cooldowns, long skill and item cooldowns and huge amount of CC, which can make you unable to do ANYTHING for like half of fight. Some classes also have "I WIN" buttons, like Rogue Cloak of shadows and paladins bubble. I've played many games and it really doesn't take too much to make fun multiplayer game. Just every strategy has to have counter-strategy, which you can adapt. Strategy games, fighting games - all the famous ones are like that. Even if your race/character have some bad matchup, you should be able to overcome it with skills. It's almost impossible in WoW if you face enemies with god mode that can disable you completely for many precious seconds. I've researched WoW PvP a bit, watched tournaments, learned some pro tricks, but sadly, it's full of stories of bad matchups.

RO PvP might seem unbalanced at first sight - skills that almost kill you instantly, almost perfect magic immunity etc. However, almost every skill , even best ones, have their countermeasures. For example Asura Strike - most powerful physical attack, can be blocked by safety wall. But if you have safety wall, you can be killed with Acid Demo, which can be blocked by pneuma. However, pneuma and safety wall don't stack and using both of them you are vulnerable to magic attacks, which might be blocked by Magnetic Earth, which removes both pneuma and safety wall. What is more, they can also be avoided by hiding - skill usable by every character with proper equipment, which can be countered by sight – again everyone can do it. There is still GR, which makes Asura and AD really weak, but you are vulnerable to statuses... and so on.

Ragnarok unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) doesn't have any fancy PvP Arena, statistics, rankings and addons. It implemented battlegrounds recently, so I haven't really seen them. However, RO has one of the greatest PvP features I've ever seen - War of Emperium. Two times every week whole servers participate in 2h long fight for castles. Alliances consisting of 4 guilds, each with maximum 7x members, try to conquer as many castles as possible or defend and invest in castle or take well invested castle.
RO is much more teamplay oriented. You fight together with your guild mates and allies, people you know and you trust. There are special Full support builds that are made just for WoE, just to make your guild win. Guild levels and guild leader has important skills. And you don't really fight to gain some rankings, points or other fancy stuff. You don't gain honour POINTS. In RO honour still has it's true meaning.

Strong point of WoW is world PvP. With every class being able to fight and constant war between two factions it makes sense and i often enjoyed it. Too bad Blizzard failed to do anything with corpse camping.

Music:

WoW music is mostly boring. It seems like they spent all budget on music just on login page. It was really good (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTnWoMl0Jew). However, later you hardly hear anything interesting. I probably don't know all tracks because I turned it off at some point, so correct me if I'm mistaken, but recently reenabled it to hear Wotlk music. First theme after arriving to northend – it was nice, kinda Nordic, but it's not good music for MMO ffs! It makes you really sleepy and bored. It's unfortunately similar in other MMO, but at least some of them switch to fast paced, epic music when you fight.

In RO soundTEMP did really great job. There is variety of different themes, often simple and calm, but they have some magic that makes playing more pleasant and fun. Not to mention epic Yuno Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFXpbwQLWYE) or hardcore Thanatos Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uMnpn8yAzw). You really feel that music and want to listen to it even outside RO.

Other stuff I forgot to mention before:

Traveling – warps, like in RO and L2, or just short animation like in WAR, are much better than flying in WoW. Making me wait long minutes to move from one end of map to another... what were they thinking?!
Trade skills – nice feature in WoW. RO one very limited.
Map loading - In RO on map switch you have few seconds of immortality, until you make any action. It really helps in huge precasts. There isn't such thing in WoW and it's abused. I remember once being summoned by Crow & some randoms to fight gankers and I was dead before WoW loaded my enemies models. I also got ganked on one of the ships. Just hearing how I got hit and seeing loading screen - extremely frustrating.

tl;dr :

WoW is boring and it's PvP sucks, RO sucks too, but less and it has WoE.

Edit:
Link to details about RO renewal project:
http://forums.irowiki.org/showthread.php?t=21817